Feature Request - thoughts on work flow ...

[FlipC]

So I have always had my setups where I pretty much perform the light show live. Which is the reason I use this over MyDMX (which I do own)
Example of my LIVE page would be something like this. Note QS is QSpot 260's.
Box 1 = QS Controls within it I have these buttons: ON , OFF, Strobe(s), and DIM(s) - note Strobe and DIMs are normally 25,50,75, 100% so 4 buttons each.
Box 2 = QS Movements (pre programmed scenes/patterns)
Box 3 = QS Colors - buttons for each color and color macros
Box 3 = QS Gobo 1 -same
Box 4 = QS Gobo 2 -same
I have some setup as groups also.Etc.
This way I can manipulate all the lights LIVE.

Well I sat down to do some scene programing for a specific song.
I started first using the TimelIne. Kept glitching the time/playback when i would pause, start.
So I just started using the editor building with the song playing in the back ground. Adjusting step times etc so things go accordingly. This is where I started wishing that this program was like a Midi editor (Abelton etc)
Imagine having a MULTI TRACK RECORDER for LIVE.
I have LIVE setup per normal. Hit record and start "playing" the LIVE buttons. I then can stop recording and go back and replay what I just did. I can also go in an edit it because just like a Midi recorder it is putting each LIVE button on a separate track. (could be per fixture)

This would make programming light shows a breeze.
Specially for us NOT IN A FIXED environment like a Theater. Even then it would cut work time down immensely.

[FlipC]

So NO ONE likes this idea?

[JohnRichards]

For my requirements, Timeline works every time without any problems, and is very simple to use.
John

[FlipC]

Wasn't a question about IF you liked Timeline. I am glad you do and that it works for you.
BUT it is and was a direct question about the idea of a DMX recorder that is like a mutli track sequencer/recorder. IE something like Abelton,Sonar,Cubase, Pro Tools, Logic - etc.
If you have never used such an application you can not answer.

First are you mobile?
Second are you running shows with multiple fixture types?
Are you limited on the amount of time you have to set up a show?

I do not run a large show.
12 moving heads and up to 56 other various lights. (OK so that can be large but those are effect lights, strobes, lasers etc) So imagine if I am creating a show via Timeline. I have already used all 10 Timelines. But I want to add something as simple as say a Blinder flash at a specific Time somewhere in the middle of it all. Your first thought is I can just go open the scene that plays during that time. BUT that wont work because I can not "merge" a single step within say a 2 minute scene at the exact time I need it to be. I would have to recreate that entire scene in order to get said blinder to fire when i want it to.

So we have my recorder idea.
(I'm going to use a moving head for this example) You have Live setup with all the controls you need for that light. X & Y Axis. Gobo, Color, Prism, Rotation, Dimmer, Shutter etc. (Which is how most of us in the Mobile world use LIVE I believe) So you click RECORD within the recorder. It starts a running time line and records anything you do within LIVE or the Editor (shouldn't limit to LIVE!) Every button is recorded and rendered in "bar" format on it's on track. You can hit Stop. Restart from the beginning and add more from other lights OR go back and edit what you did . Which would be either removing the control "bar" or changing the length/duration said bar is active for within Recorder. Once finished it saves file as a scene so that you can have it as a button in LIVE.
(Example Pic of Abelton arrangement - http://www.hitsquad.com/files/AbletonLi ... t_view.png )

Seems to me this isn't anything to be created but rather adapted.
Albeit different protocols they are not that different and MSC already exist...

[JohnRichards]

You asked - I replied!

[DHoude]

The work flow makes sense and I have been watching this thread for ideas. Personally, I am a mobile guy with a good amount of lights etc. My lights are always secodary to my Music Video dance floor play back, so limited time etc just like you. I get requests all night etc, so the show is never the same. I can visualise your workflow, but I can't see this method saving you time. When my show varries, you just can't record anything ahead of time.

So I make universal scenes for a particular group of lights. Lasers is 1 panel, RGB next, etc. So in Live I can layer them together, 1 button from each panel. Which can also be done with macros super fast! Personally, I make a "Blinder Flash" just like you. I make it a flash button in Live and press it manually. With Strobes, you have to be sparing and mindful of Epileptic patrons anyway. A Flash style Live button is the best way that I have found to do this on the fly, like it sounds like you need.

If you Edit any current scene in editor, just add your "Blinder Flash" on the step you wish it to start at or add a step in that scene. There should be no need to "merge" anything. Not sure why you would want to perform the show adead of time in Live, just to record a new step or function. A step could be added fast, but to record in real time would in your own example, would also have to be done in real time (like you said, 2 min) just to add 1 new function to a scene that you already have. Adding the light or step to a scene could not take more than 30 seconds...

From Live, they just added a feature where you can right click a Live button and open that scene in Editor, add your function, save it and the mods will be there when you go back to Live. So it makes my Editor example above even faster. I actually asked for that feature so that you could do this very same concept of Live editing. Which would be edit a scene during a show quickly. A simple Right click could open editor and load the scene to be edited for you!

As far as Timeline, I know it was off subject for your thinking. However I think it was relevant to open you to other ideas that may work for you. You seemed a bit confrontational, which does not motivate people to be nice and help your idea. Not sure what motivated me, but I would like to be part of brainstorming that make this software better for all of us. If at all possible.

But I feel you missed his point! So let me make add my 2 cents, it would be just as easy to edit a Timeline in the same way. Add your "Blinder Flash" as 1 more step (again no need to "merge") and put it in the right spot. Save and done, again no need to "merge" anything like you were reffering to. Super fast an you would not have to re perform the show if you have off timing, just to add 1 step.

[FlipC]

No not trying to be confrontational. Apps for coming across that way.
The Blinder effect was just an example.
I actually do have it keyboard mapped for B and also S for full strobe on strobe(s). Among a few others. Thing is I can not always do lights myself. It is hard to get others understanding what it is I want them to do and achieve with lighting control. So I am finally creating more elaborate scenes (shows).

In regards to just adding a step to an existing scene (will use Blinder again since its just on/off). Scene is say 5 steps total over say 2 minutes. (doesn't matter really) We want the BLINDER to Flash halfway through Step 3. I have moving heads and they are scanning smoothly. I just can't go to to the Step 3 and edit it as the step is 24 seconds long. So Blinder would be on for 24 seconds until step 4 came and then I could have it turn off. If I inserted a step, and I moved it to step 3. Respectively moving 3,4,5 up a step.Creating 6 steps total. This would effect the smooth movement of my moving heads because I just effected the total length of time for the scene. Only way I see being able to achieve this right now is to either re-editing the scene from 3 on. Which would mean adding extra steps.

You miss understand on how these multi-tracks work.
Instead of steps your looking at an actual timeline. So you can scroll forward or backward in time. (down to tenths, hundredths, or even thousands of a second- what ever is programed to be allowed). You do not have to do it real time. That was just for the example. Instead of it automatically stretching out across the entire duration of the TIMELINE you can stretch it to the length you need. Also remember that each portion is still changeable. IE say you wanted a certain gobo to come in at a specific time. You go to that fixture (or group) and change the gobo at the time location where you want it to be.

Kind of like imagining Editor
with recorder. Remove all the top portion. Leave the sliders. Have record/playback buttons (tape deck style) Mutli tracks (1 for each slider) rendered at top. Running Left to right with scroll bar to scroll down vertically through the multiple "tracks". Each track has bar graph style annotation of what is going on.
You can cut,copy, paste. Etc.

[DHoude]

I can deffinately feel your pain. We are the artists, I have never really found a person that will jump in there and "try" to be creative while anticipating what is next in the current song like I would if I had the time to press lighting buttons all night. Odly enough as this may be a surprise or of interest, if you use Virtual DJ like I do, a great plugin was made to send BPM and Cue points (and thier names) to Show Express. Even across a network, as my DJ rig and Lightin PC is seperate. Plus you can use VDJ master Tempo with Abelton, etc, so you really have some flexibilty there for what you want to do!

Why this is cool for Show Express is that I can set VDJ Cue points on a playing song Live. If you map VDJ to name the Cues (so VDJ will auto name the Cues with Live scene names) when set, Live will respond. So I can trigger Live scenes from within VDJ, if I anticipate things that my partner does not, without pushing them out of the way! Just an idea as it might help you with another workflow.

[DHoude]

NOW, to your idea. It sounds like the Timeline feature is still what you want except the Timestretch idea. Pre building a 2 min show and stretching it to fit a certain time would be pretty sick. Really Timeline is a multi line (like tracks that you are use to) and having played with Abelton, is similar to what you are asking. But Timeline is the only way you can put actions on Half steps and not one after the next, like you mentioned. So 1 line could be one set of scenes and the next line you can add more and slide it anywhere on the line, so it can do what you are asking.

I can respect that you want to be able to edit this and not just "record" a series of Live button presses. Timeline seems perfect for that IF, you can set a timeline without a song, I have not tried. I really like that idea overall and never thought of using TImeline like that.

Having made some timelines myself, I know how slow it can be (was about 1 hour of setup, per 1 min of song, only because I made it do some complicated things). It would be nice if you can populate 1 line at a time by "recording" your actions like you say. Why I feel this is key is many people have asked for Live loop options. Where a button could loop X amount of times before moving to the next button in that panel. With your idea, you could make chases do what you want by just leaving the scene on until you turn it off, so there is another feature considered if I understand you right. SO Kudos, this is a pretty revolutionary approch because you can set Live buttons for your Timelines. It would be neat if Live could chase from 1 Timeline to the next. You could really fill time like that and fast. Plus I can see being able to make more detailed sequences than currently available.

So you could have Timeline grab the scenes for you as it records your actions and populates as the time elapses, and you turn scenes on and off to play out your sequence. It would be cool to do that 1 "track" or line at a time. Then what you have at the end is a populated Timeline that you can always add to or modify in the current ways, at a later time.

That plus time stretch and you could really have something here. Timeline stretch could be similar to my Master fader concept. You could have Timeline editor open your Timeline scene, then a Time stretch tool to re-calculate the time of all your actions evenly across your newly specified duration. Just type in the time you wish it to play out in and that could calculate the % of the increase in overall time. THEN increase all of the Timeline cues by that %. SO If I had a Flash at 10 seconds in to a 2 min TImeline, and I want to stretch a 2 min to 3 min. It would see a 150% increase in duration and add that extra 50% of time to the 10 seconds of the Flash's current time Cue, etc. Evenly distributing your scenes throughout the 3 min and filling it all up!

There is your concept for that part!