Losing DMX signal using midi controller(s) [fixed]

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Re: Losing communication with midi controllers

Postby Bonifacedj » 14 November 2016, 01:59

Same scenario during my last gig yesterday.
Sweetlight connected since 5pm and tested, dance party start at 11:30 pm, at around 1:30 pm lights gone.
I stopped sweetlight in the normal way, since it still reacted, started it again and there were my lights again. Party ended at 4 am and sweetlight kept working non-stop while creating new scenes, when the crowd was gone, for my moving heads testing them in real live, till 8 am. So i shut down sweet light around that time and had no other blackout since the first blackout around 1:30 AM.

So i was thinking what could lead to this mysterious blackout every gig after one, sometimes two or three ours intensively using the lightshow?
What is the difference with my testing for a few ours since 5pm and waiting till diner is done and the start of the party 6,5 ours later?

Well, in my first testing in the afternoon, i hardly hit 5 times a diffirent macro in two ours.
When the party starts, i'm activating more of less on an average per our 35 till 40 times a diffirent macro. Every one or two minutes i push another macro button.
So after an average of two ours, (sometimes one, sometimes three ours) 'a bottle' seems full, and restarting sweetlight makes the bottle (cache?) empty again.

support wrote:Please make the following test: run the software, with the midi devices and the dmx interface, but with nothing connected to the dmx output of the dmx interface, during some hours, and tell us the result

If the problem still happen, please make the same test without the midi devices (not connected), during some hours, and tell us the result.


I came up with a test i'm gonna do during the next week in the club where i work:
I just added a button duration of 60 seconds to each of my 32 macro button's and activated 'random play'.
See attachments.

This way i can simulate the situation i'm in when i start the party with music and lightshow and will do the test you suggest for two three ours and must be able to reproduce the lights black out which happens every gig.
Only difference is that i'm not pushing the physical buttons of my APC midi controllers, but i don't think, hope, this makes any difference (could you confirm this please?), since they light up anyway when i click on an macro with the mouse.

So let's assume, i can reproduce the blackout this way, which 'i m pretty sure off, what's the next step?
I already let out my novation launchpad yesterday en plugged the DMX512 dongle straight in my Macbook air with three AKAI APC's in an powered hub in the only other free usb port on the other side of the laptop.

Should i try with another laptop, check usb cables, other hardware?
thanks in advance.

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[image]
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Re: Losing communication with midi controllers

Postby support » 14 November 2016, 08:00

If you are able to reproduce the problem with this modified lightshow (random play for Macro buttons), without any dmx equipment connected and without midi devices connected, please send us this new lightshow. We should be able to reproduce the problem as well.

We will let your lightshow run one complete night, under our debugging tools.
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Re: Losing communication with midi controllers

Postby Bonifacedj » 15 November 2016, 04:50

@support: i've went to the club, connected everything as if i was going to do a gig, and tested with random play for Macro buttons for six ours, couldn't reproduce the problem...
Then i've been working for 6 more ours with sweetlight, making scene's for my new moving heads and testing them in the club. Sweetlight kept on working.
So non-stop working for 12 ours and no lights went out.

But there is one thing i didn't do for more then at least one our: pushing physical buttons on my AKAI APC mini's. And that's how the lights went out everytime at my last four gig's.
It's not related to a specific macro, because last saturday i activated macro 14 by pushing the related button on my APC and again the lights were gone.

So, what to do next?
Well, next gig i will only use one APC mini. If again all lights gone after 1, 2 our 3 ours, i'll buy another powered usb hub. The one i'm using is powered, one year old and usb2.
I'll buy a powered usb3 hub. Will that maken any difference you think?

If again same scenario, i'll use another laptop then my Macbook air with usb3 ports.
If that doesn't work, i'm out of options.

Or does my story make you more and more think about a 'ground loop' problem?
I searched the forum and found these two topics:
1) viewtopic.php?f=15&t=468
2) viewtopic.php?f=18&t=544

If my situation looks like a real 'ground loop' problem to you, then a 'DMX optical isolator' should finally solve my problem i read in the topics.
I'll inform my technician if so.
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Re: Losing communication with midi controllers

Postby support » 15 November 2016, 09:13

In order to know if there is any "ground loop" problem (this might be a weak "ground loop" which increases only a bit the possibility to have a problem), please do this:
- disconnect everything from the dmx output of the interface
- press as fast as you can all buttons of all your midi devices

If the problem still happen, please try with only two midi devices (disconnect completly the two others).
If the problem still happen, please try with only one midi device.

If no problem with nothing connected to the dmx output, then there is a problem in the dmx line.

The power is effectively very sensible. The midi devices must be powered by a reliable usb hub. Usb2 or 3 powered hub does not matter.
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Re: Losing communication with midi controllers

Postby support » 16 November 2016, 08:53

And we strongly suggest you to plug our dmx interface, alone, to a native usb socket of the computer.
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Re: Losing communication with midi controllers

Postby Bonifacedj » 16 November 2016, 21:19

support wrote:In order to know if there is any "ground loop" problem (this might be a weak "ground loop" which increases only a bit the possibility to have a problem), please do this:
- disconnect everything from the dmx output of the interface
- press as fast as you can all buttons of all your midi devices

i've already done this with everything connected for 10 minutes. No problem.
See:
Bonifacedj wrote:...I 'abused' the buttons in the most dummy way i could think of, but couldn't reproduce it.


So to narrow down the problem, losing all my lights and getting a dark club only happens after at least one hour of pushing physically macro button's 30-40 times an our on the first in row AKAI APCmini. The second and third APC mini's i don't use much yet, although they are connected.

So the electrical(?) pulses created by pushing the Akai-buttons that long creates a kind of 'overload'. That's what i guess.
Closing down the lightningcontroller program and starting it again, 'empties the bottle' (and a new live.ini is made as follow up for the 'live.ini.old').

support wrote:If the problem still happen, please try with only two midi devices (disconnect completly the two others).
If the problem still happen, please try with only one midi device.

At my next gig i will try with a thunderbolt station i still have. See type > http://www.caldigit.com/support/TS/CalD ... Manual.pdf
i'll connect my 3 APC's through that thunderbolt station.
If i'm still getting a dark club after one, two or three ours, my next test during a gig will be using only one APC mini into a native usb socket of the computer.

support wrote:If no problem with nothing connected to the dmx output, then there is a problem in the dmx line.

The problem is i even can't reproduce it even with everything connected. That proved my last test with Macro buttons in random play for 6 ours.
The only way i can reproduce it is by physically pushing macro buttons 30-40 times an our. At least for one hour, sometimes, two or three ours. That's what i've experienced every gig.

And how can there be a problem in the dmx line when i have no problem working with it for 12 ours? On the condition i don't push buttons on the Akai APC mini on an average of 30-40 times at least one hour...

support wrote:The power is effectively very sensible. The midi devices must be powered by a reliable usb hub. Usb2 or 3 powered hub does not matter.

That's what i'll investigate with my thunderbolt station. If my powered usb2 hub causes this problem, than it should be solved by using this thunderbolt station.

support wrote:And we strongly suggest you to plug our dmx interface, alone, to a native usb socket of the computer.

That's what i did my last gig.
See attached picture. The orange cable is directly in my Macbook Air. But didn't prevent a dark club after 1,5 ours of pushing macro buttons every one / two minutes on the Akai. Before your dmx interface was plugged in to my powered hub. By plugging it directly to a native usb socket of the computer, the order of my three AKAI APC mini's changed.
The third one, which was the first one i bought and marked, became the first one again. This change of order was a benefit since i know now it is not a particular APC mini which doesn't function well.

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Re: Losing communication with midi controllers

Postby Bonifacedj » 04 December 2016, 09:35

Bonifacedj wrote:At my next gig i will try with a thunderbolt station i still have. See type > http://www.caldigit.com/support/TS/CalD ... Manual.pdf
i'll connect my 3 APC's through that thunderbolt station.

I had a gig last night and used my Thunderbolt station (see attachement).
Very sadly the story continuous. :(
After 90 minuten of pushing fysical Macro dedicated button's every one or two minutes, lights gone, people dancing in the dark until i stop and restarted TheLightningController software.

So what i've learned this time: It was a not power issue of the usb-hub i used before.

What's left to investigate: My Macbook Air 13 inch, build 2013. But don't notice anything wrong with it, so i can skip that. I wouldn't know what to investigate anyway.

What other to investigate: My light-show equipment.
What i didn't mention yet, is that i'm using two wireless DMX senders and receivers of this type, https://briteq-lighting.com/wt-dmxg4
But already for years without problems. Actually i'm using a third DMX sender and receiver as well, from another brand, which controls my back-up lights, which i need every week-end...

So could these wireless sender / reveivers be involved???
I have no choice of using them, since the place where my lightshow is installed, is protected by UNESCO. I'm not allowed to cut in the walls.
What i could do is hanging a direct DMX cable to test if that makes any difference.
But again, i never had any problems while using three classic DMX controllers.

My next test during a gig next weekend will be using only one APC mini directly connected to my Macbook air, while your DMX512 will be directly in the other usb port.
But hey, isn't sweetlight capable to handle up to 10 midi controllers at the same time? Can you confirm this please.

thx in advance,
Boni

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Re: Losing communication with midi controllers

Postby support » 04 December 2016, 10:53

Please refresh our memory: when the problem happen, what do you do to fix it ?
Do you have to restart our software ?
Do you have to switch off/on our dmx interface ?
Do you have to restart the computer ?
Do you have to switch off/on the midi equipment ?
Do you have to switch off/on the usb hubs ?
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Re: Losing communication with midi controllers

Postby Bonifacedj » 04 December 2016, 12:56

support wrote:Please refresh our memory: when the problem happen, what do you do to fix it ?
Do you have to restart our software ?

Yes.
Immediately light again when software restarted.
'Ini.old' is created.

support wrote:Do you have to switch off/on our dmx interface ?

No.

support wrote:Do you have to restart the computer ?

No

support wrote:Do you have to switch off/on the midi equipment ?

No

support wrote:Do you have to switch off/on the usb hubs ?

No
Didn't have to switch off / on my earlier used usb hub or thunderbolt hub i used last night.

Thx for your support. Hope we can find what is happening, because this is so terrible.
I've got an amazing light-show build up and this ruiins the show.

I'm not in sweating panic anymore since i know it's coming every gig between one and two ours after the party started and am prepared with independent backup lights and know that a software restart does the job immediately.
But i would pay 'a fortune' to get this fixed.
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Re: Losing communication with midi controllers

Postby Bonifacedj » 05 December 2016, 15:31

My light-thechnician just visited me in the club. He sold me your dmx512 and does also hugh light-shows with brands like chamsys and Martin as well.
He said: "this is for sure not a DMX problem", when seeing me preparing to wire my lightshow-system temporarly for excluding the wireless DMX sender en receivers as a next test.

According to my explaining he understands correctly that a black-out is triggered in some way when pushing the physical buttons of my midi controllers every minute or two at least an hour.

His guessing is:
Or the use of more the one midi controller
Or the laptop, which he finds almost immpossible
or the sofware, which he suspects the most.

I got some more tests to do...
Changing laptop,
limiting to one APC midi controller
Where is the needle.
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